having difficulty at work.....

Jul 06, 2012

The training team that I am currently part of at work simply don't understand e-learning at all , it is really affecting my work. They are all grounded and fantastic trainers, but do not come from an elearning background.
I feel like im in a different time period to the rest of them. I am getting more and more secluded, and when I try to introduce new work modules with eLearning, they all look blank. I do feel that eLearning is a very niche area, and that many other eLearning managers have a tough challenge in battling the defintion of Training and eLearning content. My manager (who is a Product Director) is not of much help at all, in fact he is also part of the problem, being a traditionalist in spin selling and training, with no concept of what eLearning is.

Anyone here experience a similar problem at work , any tips on how to deal with it?

74 Replies
Daniel Brigham

Hi, Jonathan: Sorry for your work troubles.

Elearning is not a niche area anymore: something like 40% of companies use some form of it. You probably can't even call mobile learning a niche area anymore.

Tips:

1. Perhaps it's time to start looking for another gig, that is, if you really enjoy elearning.

2. If they will listen, perhaps you can enlighten them on the benefits of elearning: how its results are measurable, how it standardizes the material, how it easily reaches people in different locales, how it has a higher ROI than ILT training, how it lets learners go at their own pace (and without the fear of public failure), how it delivers material in effective, bite-sized chunks, how it is convenient for the learner, and so on.

This may fall of deaf ears. A question for you, Jonathan: would elearning make your managers' jobs easier? How will elearning address their problems? In short, what's in it for them? --Daniel

Bob S

Hi Jonathan, 

That's no fun at all. Sorry.

You might however might be able to turn things around. Couple of thoughts...

  • First, get inside their world before you expect them to embrace yours. Understand the reasoning behind their current delivery methods and look for what's good about it... not what's bad.
  • After that, try equating e-learning to any other tool/method they use currently. For example,  point out that there are reasons/situations where a jobaid makes sense (assuming they use them now) and validate those. Then point out that e-learning is like any other tool in their box... there is a time and place for it.
  • Finally, point out how e-learning can ENHANCE what they are doing.... not replace it. For example,  validate that their stand-up model works really well for modeling and practicing selling skills and illustrate how a companion e-learning model can reinforce the skills they taught once the user is back on the job.

Final thoughts... You mentioned Spin Selling so I will tell you that true consultive-sell sales training is one of the areas that many departments are loathe to move to WBT. And there are some valid reasons for that... I've been on both sides of that debate. So position e-learning as a value-add, not a replacement for what they see as "core" training. You might find that approach highly effective.

Hope this helps,

Bob

Andy Bowyer

I agree with much of what Bob said.

And this may seem like an idiotic suggestion...but have you considered putting together an eLearning module to demonstrate how "modern versus traditional" eLearning can boost your company's profile in whatever area they're seeking to exploit?

Kinda like Bob was saying, but more of a "hands on" approach.

Or would such a thing be seen as counter-productive and result in even more blank stares?

Just a thought.

Hang in there...

Todd Thornton

@jonathan

I feel your pain. In my "free" time I've been trying to get existing teachers in traditional K-12 and even some professors in colleges that I know to start thinking differently about e-learning. I mention this because I'm guessing you are encountering the same type of "mentality" or what I lovingly refer to as "21st century distance learning dissociative disorder".  Unfortunately, in most schools you could count on one hand the number of teachers that could get excited about online/e-learning. In many colleges, you still have a huge portion of the faculty who refuse to even consider teaching a single online course. (Probably is a good thing for any potential students)

I wish you the best and many of the ideas already presented in this thread are very good, but I'll be brutally honest. I've come to the conclusion that most "traditional" educators/classroom trainers will simply not change their opinions of e-learning regardless of logic, examples, proof of effectiveness, etc. Use cases exist for all types of training and e-learning is not a panacea, but in the world that we live in today, having to sell e-learning at all means the people you're dealing with aren't exactly forward looking.

Before I stared my own school/training company 8 years ago, I worked for another person doing traditional training. He's still in existence but obviously struggling just like most other "classroom only" schools. (Now I probably have 20x the business he does) Despite the numbers, despite the trends, he to this day still advertises "he will never do online training".

Mark Twain once said, "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." If Twain could somehow be brought back to life, he would likely use every method we have today to communicate/deliver his stories/messages. (From what I understand he was really into technology/innovation so I suspect he could really kick ass with Storyline)  Even if Twain was here in the flesh promoting e-leaning, there would be a huge group of educators who would dismiss him. I can hear them now, who does he think he is? He doesn't know how we operate/do things around here! You write a couple of books with some inappropriate language and suddenly you are an expert storyteller?

I really hope you can change some minds and things work out for you, but since I'm on a Twain kick, I'll leave you with a lessor known quote just in case. 

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.

Keep in mind, he didn't always make the greatest financial decisions.

Todd

Bruce Graham

Hi Jonathan.

Firstly - see above  

Pretty much evrything that needs to be said has been said here. Your experience echoes EXACTLY a situation I was in some 12/13 years ago, and in hindsight I can confirm all suggestions said here would have helped.

 

What is at the ROOT of this, what is the CAUSE? Daniel used one word (albeit in a different context) - that word was FEAR. I believe these guys are scared. They are scared of losing status, jobs and they (possibly?) do not understand the technology.  They drive cars and probably do not understand how a carburettor works, so "technology" is an easy one to deal with, but they DO use a car to get to work - they know the VALUE.

Todd articulates (excuse the pun) closest to my own position on this one. If you do not want to evolve, (because that is what it is...), you had better move out of the way "...'coz I'm comin' thro!"

Loads of good ideas above, it is about selling the value/add-on to them, however, with my "consultant visionary" hat on...you seem very passionate about what you do, so perhaps it is time to turn your attentions somewhere else, and spend your time in a World where people DO understand?

eLearning is not niche anymore - it is here to (increasingly) stay in all its formats. They can accept that and work with it, or (TBH), fight and wither.

Bruce

jonathan tressier

Hi everyone! Thank you for your responses. They have been enlightening and supportive. You all make a lot of sense, and I will take your advice. It is also good to read that I am not alone in the situation.

@Daniel I do think it is time to look for another gig as you put it! The reason being is that I don’t feel like I personally fit in. Not only with the team, but also with the corporate objectives of the business. My big hurdle is that I am managing the eLearning for a business that has over 1000 products almost. There is so much to do in this area, yet I will openly admit, as I am very new to the business, I am finding it difficult to manage the eLearning on products I don’t know. I expected my team to do this, yet they are openly staring at me to run eLearning on courses that they are SME’s in. Hence the lack of support I have had in my team! What is in it for them is low cost, investable solutions and ROI. We are aiming to sell our eLearning content, and as much as I would love to create these courses, my heart is not very interested in the actual products. How do you override that?

@Bob – You have raised some good points, my idea is that you do sell the idea of eLearning, through its value and innovative concepts, yet however I have chosen to display this through the new methodology and processes of eLearning which they have warmed to. Yet no practice. How could I effectively get them to run eLearning themselves without them thinking it is a threat to their jobs? It has been the biggest challenge.

@Todd – I love that quote. It is very true. Do I adapt or do I persevere?

@Bruce Your right. I am really leaning towards throwing in the towel with the team. The constant battles of trying to win them over is becoming exhausting. I have tried to launch eLearning content but the irony is they don’t see the value add.
Thanks again all for the replies. I leave with you all the next;

Instead of trying to win over colleagues on eLearning, how do we win over their characters? How do you feel less secluded? Has anyone gone through feeling like the odd one out? How do you handle disheveled team members?

Thank you!

J

Adrian Gates

I'll throw in my 2 cents...

Not necessarily at my current job, but I have had that problem in the past...being that odd man out for being a little ahead of the curve. I held on, and when it was appropriate, I'd remind people in a friendly way that I had experience that would help them do their jobs better. I'd send out tips and tricks, and before too long, someone saw what I could do for them and gave me a break. We made a really intense presentation that had it all - broke away from the PPT templates (but kept the brand), non-linear navigations, video clips, etc. - the works. And for a lot of people I was working with, once they saw it in action, they embraced it and things improved for me immensely in terms of job satisfaction. Actually, reading that back, I guess that's happened to me a few times

It's good to note that there are some people each time I found myself in this sort of scenario that just never came around to doing things differently. They were happy doing what they were doing and that wasn't changing no matter the benefit. So it was just a matter of accepting that and rolling with it, or else making like a tree and getting out of there.

Steve Flowers

I've felt the same way in the past. Here's the way I dealt with it:

  • Don't think of eLearning as an either / or proposition that competes with other methods as a binary all or nothing. Think of it as a system component where all of the components play to their strengths. Thinking "one or the other" deepens the divide and doesn't help. eLearning is always part of a bigger picture... always. If the designer / developer / consultant can't see (or isn't looking for) that bigger picture fit, it's a good bet that nobody else will see it.
  • Don't think of eLearning as *courses*. Think more about support materials and small pieces of *anytime | anywhere* learning process support (learning is a process, not a commodity with magical transmissive properties). The packaged course model is what folks have experienced if they have experienced eLearning. Folks have a negative association with this model and it isn't without good reason. This relates to *system thinking* above. Packaged courses are appropriate in some cases but all too often we make that our only service line. As a lone service line, courses pave the road to irrelevance. Job aids, tutorials, and smaller artifacts that support the actual mission and the training mission are part of the bigger picture. Focus there for a better balance of effort to outcomes.
  • Locate a champion or partner and build a reputation of success focused on that partnership. Build on willing partnerships, even if the partnerships result in minuscule wins. Change is hard. Change is IMPOSSIBLE if folks can't experience or see evidence of benefit. Find someone that clearly articulates a problem and help them solve it. Build them a job aid that they can use in class and give to folks when they leave class. Build a quick tutorial to help the instructor solve a "tough learning problem". Audit or observe a class session. Watch to see where the problems are. Produce something small that they can use that can also be distributed. Maybe there's an illustration you can provide that completely clarifies a seemingly tough to grasp concept. Think "small wins". Small wins snowball into bigger wins. 
Dawn Mahoney

I echo all that's been written here! (with these additions):

Leaving the organization or department may not be the answer. At the risk of sounding flip, I think getting really good at guiding better, more enlightened conversation is in order.  

I loved the comment that so-called "e-Learning" isn't an either/or proposition. It should be one of many methods of delivery that is considered in the design phase ONLY after careful and thorough needs analysis and uncovering work is done. Is digital delivery the best option? Maybe yes, maybe no.

And just as important, are conversations where it is discussed whether any form of training is the real need. Could a well done job aid, lookup reference tool--whatever performance support tool you come up with, be the best solution? Often it is. Training, regardless of how it is delivered, is often NOT the answer. I keep saying in my organization, "just because they ask for a training module doesn't mean that's what they need".

All of us in this profession need to become better advocates for the learners and foster thinking and conversation about performance support that isn't necessarily a training session or course.   

Holly MacDonald

Jonathon - it is hard to be the odd man out, but I think it's safe to say that e-learning is not going to go away, so you can choose to help guide your colleagues or not. If you choose to help, realize that this isn't about e-learning, it's about influence or change.

In terms of influence, Cialdini's work is broadly cited: http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/persuasion-and-how-to-influence-others/ and perhaps you can build a strategy around one of those 6 principles. Or you may want to do some research around leading change. For example, the leading thinker is still Jon Kotter who wrote "Leading Change" http://cerc.stanford.edu/leading_change.PDF (although I'd also add the Heath Brothers who wrote Made to Stick - about marketing/comm - and Switch - http://www.heathbrothers.com/resources/download/#switch about change).

Focus less on the fact that they don't get e-learning and focus more on what's it going to take to have them want to know more about e-learning. It could be a great case study for you to document of "how I turned my department around". I bet that would be an interesting article or conference presentation!

One thing about e-learning that I've found is that people often have a pretty narrow view of what it is and the reality is there are many faces of e-learning. Maybe you can find something that they already do that *is* e-learning in a broad sense?

Hope that helps.

Holly

Rebecca Hay

Hi Jonathan,

Lots of great advice and infiormation here. It is all good.

Here are a few thoughts from my personal experience.

We are very invested in instructor led classroom training here and we are also heavily invested in eleaning.

We use the elearning in a lot of instances to "prep" the student so that they have a background knowledge before attending class. We have been able to decrease the hours spent in classroom (payrool, travel, hotel, etc.) by shifting some of the training to elearning which must be completed before they come to class. Many of these involve product training. We give them the basics so that they have a starting basis of the terminology, the looks, the function, etc. When they get to class, they get the hands on and the this is what you do with it.

We have done the same type of elearning with our cash register system. They get the basics, terminology, and even some simulation practice before they come to class. This has shortened our classroom time by about half in the register training.

Another area that you didn't mention in your post was HR training. What about approaching your HR department and offering to create some courses for them? (sexual harrassment, safety, insurance 101, benefits, orientation) In my experience, HR has been more than happy to work with us in getting out courses.

Hope some of this helps.

Don't give up.

Bob S

Jonathan,

As you know, the topic of Change Management is a hot one and there are volumes written on the subject. With that said, I will offer up two thoughts, both of which have been touched upon somewhat already....

1) The classic mistake that many of us make concerning change is to address emotional concerns solely with logical arguements.

Much of what drives resistance to change is emotional, like fear, anxiety, etc. If you have every tried to out-logic a loved one concerning an emotional topic, you will understand how futile and frustrating that strategy can be!  Yes, concerns need to be addressed with facts, but that is only part of the story. Empathy, acceptance, and sometimes just acknowledgement of the emotions involved can work wonders. Work to find the right balance between the emotional and logical sides of change resistance and you are headed in the right direction.

2) Find influence/change methods that you can identify with....and more importantly, that your audience can identify with.

I think it was Holly that mentioned Cialdini; I'm a HUGE fan. His stage prescence is far from riveting, but the messages are so spot-on that you may find yourself slapping your head in realization over and over as you experience them. Consider pursuing materials from experts in the field like Dr Cialdini or the vast hoard of others out there. And adopt the strategies and methods that fit your audience best. Don't wing it, turn to the pros.

Should you decide to fight the good fight and stick it out, I wish you luck and hope that some of the advice here helps,

Bob

Todd Thornton

This is not directed at any one person and I agree all the ideas suggested are good and hopefully they'll work, but the overall tone brings up a bigger point that's starting to irk me a little. (Granted I'm becoming far too grumpy the older I get) I realize this is a slight over generalization but for whatever reason people in e-learning still tend to think they have to prove their worth more than "traditional" trainers. I'm not talking about ROI, but a general sense of we need to accommodate people who don't understand e-learning and figure out a better way to explain what we do or a different way to reach them? 5 or 10 years ago I'd say okay, but today? I don't think so.

If people at your workplace said the world was flat, would it be up to you to figure out a way to convince them otherwise? I could make a very good argument based on past success, reduced cost, speed to deployment, etc. that the people who want to train "old school" style should have to justify to the e-learning team why they need to rent meeting space, take up everyone's time on a certain date, have people travel, etc. I realize there's always office politics and sometimes face to face works best, but IMHO, a lot of people in e-learning far too easily play the role of the red headed stepchild and think they are not as "worthy" or don't have a right to be on equal footing.

I'll leave all the Dallas fans with a quote by the canny negotiator J.R. Ewing. (Granted the new version of Dallas is really hard to watch)

"Power is not something that's given to you. Real power is something you take."

If I could sum up my comments, IMVHO too many people in e-learning are still waiting for someone else to give them more power, status, and/or prestige and life just doesn't normally work that way.

(Sorry for the rant)

Todd

Bruce Graham

Todd,

I agree with you completely. The training industry is bursting at the seams with people that do not think business metrics matter, (such as measuring their effectiveness at hotel venues etc...).

Yes (IMHO), you need to just "do it", and the best way to do this (again IMHO) is to start speaking the "language of the board", and speak TO the board. Convince the doubters by letting them see the investment you get, the way that YOUR courses get promotional emails from VP HR, etc etc, not theirs.

Reframe the fight. We still have to "do" the fight, we just need to do it in a slightl;y different way, because many people still think that F2F training is the ONLY way. It is important, but it's now only ONE OF THE WAYS.

Bruce

Belen Casado

@Jonathan, I have exactly the same. Though I'm late for the 1st thread of discusion, I still feel the need to tell: in my case, I'm my team. I arrived the company 5 months ago and was the only one who knew about eLearning. The company was (and is) a traditional distance training company. 

No one listened to me. They want to become an e-learning provider, BUT without making any change. The corporative culture comes from the industrial revolution (really, they used to be an industrial company), so I soon had an engineer telling me what to do. I don't have to say that he hadn't any experience in e-learning or training.

@Todd said "Power is not something that's given to you. Real power is something you take."

In my trying to take power, the CEO has excluded me from meetings, so now I'm given manuals of about 300 pages to "convert" them to e-learning, no matter how it is. Nobody knows the target, scope or anything that could narrow the projects.

That's why I'm looking for another gig, as @Daniel put it.

@Holly, again, thank you for documents, I'm learning a lot here!

Belén

Bob S

Todd and others,

What a great discussion... seriously. And I understand the allure of saying "You old schoolers don't get it, we are the future and you are behind the times". And for the most part, that's true.

The challenge is most business environments/cultures I have experienced typically don't warm to that approach.

So like it or not, many of us are still cast in the role of "change agents". We can choose to play that role and help move the entire company/division/department forward, or we can chose to walk away and find greener pastures where they already "get it". Both are valid choices. But today's economic environment has many folks rethinking their options.

Thanks for the great discussion,

Bob

Todd Thornton

@bob

Well said. I view the e-learning/traditional debate within a larger construct. As you point out, a lot of business environments don't warm to change which is certainly not limited to training. That's really the bigger issue. The inability of businesses to adapt/change course quickly due to market conditions could very well become fatal to businesses going forward.

The economy is fairly tough for everyone right now, but it's the businesses who are most set in their ways that are struggling the most. (At least that's why I'm seeing when/if there's competition)

I'm sure my rants can sometimes come across at being a little "preachy" (benefits of being your own boss) but I personally see a huge opportunity over the next three-five years for people in the corporate e-learning world to move up the ladder. It concerns me that not enough are positioning themselves now to take advantage of those potential opportunities. Granted not every CEO will be open to change, but due to economic conditions many will be forced to re-evaluate every aspect of their businesses.

In other words, a lot of organizations are "ripe" for a complete restructuring of how they view, create, and conduct/deliver training. Some people prefer to nudge everyone towards a new direction while some of us are slightly less subtle and prefer to push people out of the way.

Todd

Bruce Graham

It's funny...imagine if this thread was a programme about some sort of ancient creature on the National Geographic Channel on a Sunday evening.

We would get told that creature x stopped evolving as their environment changed, and they died out, or got sidelined to a different environment and status.

Everyone would nod and agree what a great programme it was, full of truths.

And then a fair % of the training dept. would go back to work on Monday morning and wonder why the same sidelining was happening to them...

As I've said before...."...Better move aside, 'coz someone who CAN do it is a comin' thro'..."

Bruce

Steve Flowers

I actually enjoy the challenge of someone that "doesn't quite get it" -- it's so satisfying when the lightbulb comes on and a hard-over opponent (or group of opponents) now becomes a new sprinkler head of support. There are usually one or two hold-outs in any organization.

After doing this stuff for awhile, the role of change agent is pretty comfortable. It dovetails nicely with the role consultant as it quickly becomes natural to help folks navigate through potential zones of discomfort. 

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